Sarah Marshank: Spiritual Practice, Relationships, Evolution, Art, and more.

[00:00:00] Sarah, welcome back for round three.

[00:00:02] Thanks, Jake. Happy to be here.

[00:00:04] So you recently had an event in Austin.

[00:00:08] Could you touch a little bit on that, on some of the things that,

[00:00:12] that you were doing and some of the things that you were hoping to get out

[00:00:15] of an experience like that?

[00:00:17] Sure. Um, so basically I offer retreats,

[00:00:22] um, a few times a year.

[00:00:24] And the cool thing about the self-history retreats,

[00:00:27] I think is that they're very organic and structured for

[00:00:32] the participants and the group.

[00:00:34] And I don't know how much we've talked about the framework of self-history,

[00:00:38] um, but there's these three realms.

[00:00:41] I think we've covered in one of our earlier podcasts, um,

[00:00:44] where we have the self and all the interior psycho

[00:00:49] somatic emotional stuff. And then we have the witness, right?

[00:00:54] The one that observes the self-awareness. And then we have source,

[00:00:58] which is like the meta big picture, you know, the universe, God,

[00:01:02] great spirit, whatever.

[00:01:04] So self history is the artistry of integrating all those

[00:01:09] and allowing them to make art of you.

[00:01:13] And um, so what we do when we come together is

[00:01:17] we basically spend time doing exercises in each of

[00:01:22] those three realms. But then we also, um,

[00:01:26] engage in the self history. It's,

[00:01:29] I call it the signature somatic practice.

[00:01:32] And basically what that is is we use our bodies to play in those

[00:01:37] three realms.

[00:01:38] And then we get curious about how they interweave with one another.

[00:01:42] It's a little bit difficult to describe. It's obviously, it's like chocolate.

[00:01:47] It's better to just try it. Um, but, um,

[00:01:51] it, what was interesting in this particular event in Austin.

[00:01:54] And I love that you asked the question is that that practice is starting to

[00:01:59] morph and evolve.

[00:02:01] So what that means is that the work itself is alive.

[00:02:06] This is kind of like what Ram Dass and I talked about, right? When we,

[00:02:10] when I shared with him the self history framework and he mentioned

[00:02:15] how it dovetails and is basically this,

[00:02:18] the similar framework to how he orients and how he would guide someone to their

[00:02:23] relationship with themselves.

[00:02:25] And then with a higher power or God or source or the mystery infinity.

[00:02:30] So these kind of teachings and templates,

[00:02:33] and this is something I love about you as well in your curiosity,

[00:02:37] they evolve over time.

[00:02:39] Religions evolve over time to meet the needs of the context of the

[00:02:44] particular generation. So I got to see self history,

[00:02:48] even in this small amount of time that it's been alive on the planet nine

[00:02:51] years,

[00:02:52] it's starting also to speak to us and evolve and how we engage

[00:02:57] in it.

[00:02:59] And the only thing I would say about that and hopefully one day you'll be

[00:03:02] able to attend one is it's moving more into this,

[00:03:06] um, kind of improv zone.

[00:03:09] So a little bit like drama therapy and if you're familiar with

[00:03:14] constellation work of Burt Hellinger, um,

[00:03:17] so there are these creative playful ways to deal with our

[00:03:22] madness and our psyche,

[00:03:24] to get playful with it rather than so serious about it and to

[00:03:29] allow it to kind of shift and morph,

[00:03:32] but also to be seen and witnessed.

[00:03:35] And then to really lean into, Oh my God,

[00:03:38] this whole thing is a mystery. Like relax everybody. You're going to die.

[00:03:42] So take a deep breath and just let's check in on how you're living.

[00:03:47] Um, so it's very, they're very fun. And the other thing is we cook together,

[00:03:51] we eat together. We also, yeah, we might take hikes. We might, um,

[00:03:56] you know, walk into town, go out for dinner, whatever.

[00:03:58] We like live our normal life normal in quotation marks so that we can

[00:04:03] integrate our spiritual practice into our living and there is not this,

[00:04:08] you know, great divide.

[00:04:10] Yeah,

[00:04:10] that's a cool way to do it because it seems like a lot of retreat formats

[00:04:14] are kind of isolated and then, well, actually I haven't been to a retreat,

[00:04:17] so I don't really know what I'm talking about,

[00:04:19] but it kind of seems like they're kind of isolated.

[00:04:22] And then once it ends, you're kind of on your own again. So,

[00:04:26] so you're, you're doing both at once to kind of like help people.

[00:04:31] Yeah.

[00:04:31] Bridge that gap without just kind of like being on their own to figure

[00:04:35] it out, which seems like it can be a little disorienting.

[00:04:37] Yeah, it's very disorienting the integration phase.

[00:04:40] I think a lot of teachers now are much more hip to that and are working more to

[00:04:45] help people integrate after, cause you kind of get high.

[00:04:48] You get blissed out on the retreat and then you go back and you like have to

[00:04:52] deal with your dirty laundry or your kids or,

[00:04:55] and it just like all collapses. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:58] Yeah. What are some of the ways that, that you deal with that?

[00:05:01] Cause I have a, I have a hard time with that. I can really in,

[00:05:04] in isolation by myself, it's really easy to get into that state,

[00:05:08] but it's very hard to maintain it. I think like the more noise that I'm around.

[00:05:13] You know, Jake, I, I am so grateful.

[00:05:16] I had those 10 years to really be away from the noise of the world and

[00:05:21] relationships and people and all of that.

[00:05:25] Because it's super hard and it takes time and it takes practice.

[00:05:32] And I think for me,

[00:05:35] the most important thing when I work with people is to number one,

[00:05:39] just like relax around that. Like you're it's,

[00:05:43] you're going to come down off your high.

[00:05:45] It doesn't mean that the high was wasted or that you've lost it. Right?

[00:05:49] It's Ram Dass used to always say, you know,

[00:05:52] he did his psychedelic journey so that he had like a North star and then

[00:05:57] he had to do practice in order to integrate that into, you know,

[00:06:01] knowing his zip code and managing on this plane,

[00:06:04] which is really where we, I would say when we're feel our humanity,

[00:06:10] this is where we want. We want to be blissed out in relationship.

[00:06:14] We want to remember this while we're going to work and you know,

[00:06:17] it's not that we want to forget it. It's this is where it matters.

[00:06:21] So I would say a couple of things. One is just relax and know that it takes

[00:06:25] time. The second thing is fill your life with people who are also playing

[00:06:30] in this way. Right? So make sure, and I try to do that.

[00:06:35] We have ongoing sessions and group meetings and book clubs and all sorts of

[00:06:42] things to just keep us paying attention.

[00:06:46] And then the third thing is to develop your own practice in your life that

[00:06:51] is manageable for you. This is also a challenge.

[00:06:53] Like meditation isn't for everyone. Therapy isn't for everyone.

[00:06:58] Lifting weights isn't for everyone. A vegan diet isn't for everyone.

[00:07:03] You have to like find your own recipe that you can then bring into your life

[00:07:10] with consistency and that actually roots it.

[00:07:14] It's that consistent practice. So those three things.

[00:07:19] So for leaving things kind of open ended to figure out what works for

[00:07:24] you individually,

[00:07:25] what's kind of a guiding principle that you use for that to still have some

[00:07:29] guide rails on? Because I feel like people need different levels of guide rails.

[00:07:32] Like some people like really open ended,

[00:07:34] some people want a lot more direction.

[00:07:36] How do you approach that with people with yourself and people that you

[00:07:38] work with?

[00:07:39] It's a beautiful question. I think it demands an intimate relationship.

[00:07:44] And when I use the word intimate, I don't mean sexual.

[00:07:47] I mean honest and open and vulnerable. I need to know you.

[00:07:51] I need to get to know where your fears are and

[00:07:56] where you're prone to falling into habits and

[00:08:01] patterns. And so it's really a process of knowing yourself.

[00:08:04] And we do that together and then we try and we experiment.

[00:08:09] And we always use the template of the three realms.

[00:08:13] So I invite my students, make sure you're doing a practice in the self realm.

[00:08:18] You're doing a practice in the witness realm and you're doing a practice in the

[00:08:21] source realm. What those practices are doesn't matter.

[00:08:25] We can figure that out and then try it consistently for 30 days.

[00:08:31] So I like the 30 day, the lunar cycle.

[00:08:34] There's something about that cadence our bodies know cause we're connected

[00:08:38] to that cycle. And then we can revisit after 30 days.

[00:08:41] And sometimes like I'll have people say, no, I'm going to go three months.

[00:08:44] Great. You know, I'm going to go six months.

[00:08:47] You start to lead and you start to decide what you want to try.

[00:08:51] And then we revisit it and we iterate from there.

[00:08:54] It's really prototyping and being willing to go, oh shit, that didn't work.

[00:08:58] Let me, I didn't do or I committed to 20 minutes of meditation,

[00:09:02] but I only did 10, you know? It's like, okay, all right.

[00:09:05] Well let's work from there. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like that.

[00:09:08] So for something like a 30 day practice,

[00:09:11] like do you set it up in a way where you're like,

[00:09:14] no matter what I'm going to finish this 30 days because sometimes in the

[00:09:17] beginning,

[00:09:19] it doesn't seem like it's working and then eventually get over the hump.

[00:09:22] But it's kind of hard to tell like what,

[00:09:24] like what if you're like day 22 and you're like,

[00:09:26] this really doesn't feel like it for me. But like,

[00:09:29] do you keep going pretty much all the time or like,

[00:09:32] is there a time when you cut it?

[00:09:34] It depends on the person and the, and what you're doing.

[00:09:37] If it is starting to cause harm, absolutely.

[00:09:40] But if it's just your resistance or your fear,

[00:09:43] then it's worth pushing through.

[00:09:46] And you can kind of pay attention and see where that line is.

[00:09:50] Yeah. That radical honesty. Sometimes you can't see it,

[00:09:53] but I can see it for you, right? Cause you're so into it.

[00:09:57] There's a story in my memoir with Sam where that happened with me and

[00:10:01] Sam where I just,

[00:10:02] I was on a fast and I wanted to break it and he basically

[00:10:06] said no finish. And I was like, I hate you.

[00:10:10] I want, you know,

[00:10:11] but I did it and it really broke through something huge for me.

[00:10:15] So it really is being radically honest and courageous

[00:10:20] and doing our best. You know,

[00:10:23] Is fasting still something that you like to do?

[00:10:26] I don't fast the way I fasted while I was in retreat anymore because

[00:10:31] those fasts were more about cultivating the witness than they were

[00:10:35] about caring for my physical body.

[00:10:38] So now I have other practices that deepen my witness

[00:10:43] primarily for me meditation.

[00:10:45] And then the experiments I do with food and diet are more

[00:10:50] around the longevity and the health and wellbeing of this body.

[00:10:54] Yeah.

[00:10:55] So you don't have to pull at one to have the other,

[00:10:59] I guess.

[00:10:59] What do you mean?

[00:11:00] Like, so like, like you, you don't have to like, to,

[00:11:05] you feel like you don't have to take a toll on your physical body in order for

[00:11:08] like a spiritual practice at this point.

[00:11:10] Cause it seems like some of them can do that sometimes.

[00:11:12] Totally, totally.

[00:11:14] And I try to be more integrative in that and to honor the physical body,

[00:11:19] though there is something about,

[00:11:21] so the way I'll play with it is let's say I won't fast like on those

[00:11:26] fasts were just water.

[00:11:27] But what I might do is I might say, okay, no chocolate for 30 days.

[00:11:31] Like something I really love, you know,

[00:11:34] so I get to, you know, feel that tension around,

[00:11:39] you know,

[00:11:39] but I do do other juice fasts and stuff like that.

[00:11:42] And that also hits that pocket of my body going,

[00:11:45] please feed me and me going, no, no, no,

[00:11:48] let's just detox a little bit more.

[00:11:50] So yeah.

[00:11:52] Yeah. And it's fun to experiment at least for me.

[00:11:55] I mean, you seem like that kind of person.

[00:12:00] After an event, what's the,

[00:12:03] I guess what are some changes in the way that you usually feel compared to when

[00:12:07] it's been a little while since you've had an event?

[00:12:09] Like whenever you're, you're walking away, how does it usually affect you?

[00:12:13] I love them. I just love, love, love.

[00:12:16] I love being in life with people.

[00:12:20] Um, I think sometimes the retreats can be like you said,

[00:12:23] it's an isolated thing,

[00:12:26] but what I'm doing now is renting airbnbs and doing small groups.

[00:12:31] Right.

[00:12:32] So we really are living together.

[00:12:34] And I also have students sometimes come and do a retreat with me in my home for

[00:12:39] a weekend. And so there's really this feeling of much,

[00:12:42] it's much easier to leave and go back into life.

[00:12:47] Um, and um, yeah, was that your question? Did I answer that?

[00:12:51] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:53] Yeah. Another thing that I wanted to ask about, oh,

[00:12:57] feel free to like any of the questions or something that you had,

[00:13:01] I just have my sheet in front of me. So like, I've got to just,

[00:13:03] I just look at those. Like if you ever want to interject with a question,

[00:13:05] go ahead. Um, what are the things that,

[00:13:09] that has been on my mind a little bit recently that we talked about some

[00:13:12] before we started rolling was, uh,

[00:13:14] dealing with thoughts that we don't want to have feelings that we don't

[00:13:18] have emotions that we don't want to have and what the,

[00:13:21] what the balance is between like focusing on them too much and ignoring

[00:13:24] them. So there's like that, that book that came out, um,

[00:13:28] Bad Therapy by Abigail Schreier. And then there's, uh,

[00:13:32] it just, it seems to kind of be a point of conversation right now.

[00:13:34] It's like how much of that is too much and like how much of it is,

[00:13:39] you know, if you're ignoring things, you're kind of repressing them.

[00:13:41] And then you get the,

[00:13:42] the Carl Jung kind of like neurotic spillage of your unconscious and

[00:13:46] stuff when you repress too hard versus on the, on the other hand,

[00:13:50] if you're focusing on things too much,

[00:13:52] you're kind of overthinking and ruminating on stuff, which is also bad.

[00:13:55] Like what's the way that you kind of, um,

[00:14:00] find some kind of a middle ground in dealing with things and direct other

[00:14:03] people in doing that.

[00:14:05] That's a beautiful question.

[00:14:07] I feel that what self history brings to that self realm.

[00:14:15] So is basically the perspective of the witness and the perspective of

[00:14:20] source, like really big picture meta context.

[00:14:24] And then self awareness where you stand back and you like observe yourself

[00:14:30] really is the secret sauce to being able to discern when you go into the

[00:14:36] self realm. Cause this is what I say.

[00:14:38] I think there's a lot of overemphasis on trying to fix the self or,

[00:14:43] you know, like it's a self improvement project.

[00:14:46] You can be whatever you want to be and you just work hard enough and

[00:14:50] right. It's like,

[00:14:51] it's like the whole capitalism applied to your own individuality and to be

[00:14:56] fair, right? You know, there's,

[00:14:58] there's an emphasis on the individual and I can do it myself and pull up

[00:15:02] your bootstraps and all this kind of thing. And it's maddening if you don't.

[00:15:07] But for me, what happened was when I got the perspective of like, oh,

[00:15:12] I don't have to change anything about myself. Like,

[00:15:17] I'm fine just the way I am now.

[00:15:19] Now let's not then go to the other side of the spectrum and go, oh yeah,

[00:15:22] I'm perfect. Just the way I am. I can be an asshole, you know?

[00:15:26] But there's something about the witness and the spaciousness to go

[00:15:32] relax around all that.

[00:15:33] Like you don't have to go digging into the depths of your shadow to be a

[00:15:37] conduit of love or wisdom.

[00:15:40] And you don't have to be the best, you know, the most beautiful,

[00:15:45] the strongest, the rock star in order to be a conduit of beauty and

[00:15:49] goodness and wisdom. But you,

[00:15:51] there is some self work that does often need to be done.

[00:15:55] So to be able to discern, you know,

[00:15:58] which thoughts should I work on changing and which ones should I work on

[00:16:01] just allowing them to recede into the background is once again,

[00:16:05] a case by case process of discerning.

[00:16:09] Yeah. One of the things that it,

[00:16:12] that seems to be the case as far as I can tell after reading a bunch of books and

[00:16:16] then doing different podcasts and stuff, it seems like,

[00:16:20] like the one principle is basically just paying attention.

[00:16:23] And it's kind of just having the most acute awareness that you possibly can.

[00:16:27] And then you kind of just figure stuff out. And it's,

[00:16:32] it's a weird one because that kind of lead like,

[00:16:34] I feel like that could leave you uncomfortable is like, well,

[00:16:37] what am I supposed to do? You know, I've had, um,

[00:16:39] I've talked to some people who said that that was their problem with Taoism and

[00:16:42] Zen is that they're like, it doesn't tell you what to do. Like,

[00:16:46] it just kind of like you're kind of left in a place where it's like,

[00:16:50] and you have to be really uncomfortable or really comfortable with like not

[00:16:53] having guidance. You know,

[00:16:54] Krishna Murthy was another guy who was kind of like that.

[00:16:56] And he was like, you can't like, like there's not really,

[00:17:00] like nobody can really tell you what to do or what to think.

[00:17:04] It's kind of just about, about paying attention and being aware. Now,

[00:17:06] I do think that there are tools that can be helpful,

[00:17:09] but it kind of seems like like that one principle of awareness is really

[00:17:13] kind of what the most of it boils down to.

[00:17:16] I think so too. And I think, you know,

[00:17:18] we spoke about a little bit last time about Ken Wilbur and integral theory.

[00:17:22] And I think that's one of the things for me,

[00:17:24] his work that really kind of validated my own experience,

[00:17:29] which was that that I spent all those years cultivating that self awareness

[00:17:34] and, and, and seems like for you, it comes almost naturally. You have,

[00:17:38] you have an innate receptivity and attunement to that,

[00:17:42] which a lot of people don't.

[00:17:44] So that's a skill that can be learned as well that comes pretty naturally to

[00:17:48] you. But what integral theory does is it,

[00:17:51] is it basically says, you know, what Krishna Murthy said is true.

[00:17:55] What Zen says is true. What Taoism says is true.

[00:17:58] Your access to that self awareness is true.

[00:18:02] And,

[00:18:04] and there is also the perspective of the psychology of the self that is a

[00:18:10] part of the wholeness of you that wants to be integrated into that awareness.

[00:18:16] So just having the awareness without considering the interior of the psyche,

[00:18:22] but just muddling in and tinkering with the interior without the

[00:18:27] perspective.

[00:18:28] And then the added layer that Ken brings in is then also your relation to

[00:18:34] others and to the world outside of you. So it's your interior,

[00:18:38] your exterior,

[00:18:39] and then the collective exterior and interior.

[00:18:45] And unless we, I don't know about you,

[00:18:48] but I found when I learned this after,

[00:18:50] cause I came out a retreat after 10 years and I was like,

[00:18:53] where do I belong? Like that was, you know,

[00:18:56] like, and what Ken was basically saying, Oh my God is you belong right here,

[00:19:00] because what you did is essential, but it's not enough.

[00:19:06] So now you need to work on your psychology and your relations and your,

[00:19:11] you know,

[00:19:11] integration into the world or connection to source in that way in order for

[00:19:16] you to really become enlightened or feel whole or be on that evolutionary

[00:19:22] edge. And I was like, Oh my God, that feels so true.

[00:19:25] And that's what I've been doing for 20 years.

[00:19:27] And that's where the realms of self-history came from.

[00:19:30] Yeah. Do you have much of an interest in evolution?

[00:19:34] Oh my God, I can't believe you're asking that question.

[00:19:38] I am in such a deep dive now of reading so much about it and learning

[00:19:46] about cells and biology and, and, and symbiosis. And oh my gosh,

[00:19:51] I'm, I'm why do you bring that up? Like, are you, are you studying it?

[00:19:56] I think it's, it's one of my favorite,

[00:20:00] I guess models or heuristics or whatever you would want to call it for the

[00:20:05] way that my mind works.

[00:20:07] I really think that the survival and reproduction framework as like kind of

[00:20:13] a, as like a binding principle is really makes a lot of sense to me.

[00:20:17] And it's, it's pretty helpful for like, just,

[00:20:20] just like having kind of one,

[00:20:21] like it manifests in a bunch of different ways.

[00:20:24] But like usually whenever I found that it's,

[00:20:27] it's been helpful for me,

[00:20:28] like anytime I having some kind of thought or I'm trying to like do

[00:20:31] something that I don't feel good about,

[00:20:33] usually I can trace it down to that.

[00:20:35] Usually it has something to do with like status or like in some way,

[00:20:37] at least in my head,

[00:20:38] I can kind of like write it out and be like,

[00:20:41] that makes sense from this perspective of like survival and reproduction.

[00:20:45] So that's, that's why I haven't gone super deep on like,

[00:20:48] on a cellular level because frankly I kind of get lost like,

[00:20:52] like the more like in depth with that kind of stuff. I've never,

[00:20:55] yeah, I've never been good at that. But yeah,

[00:20:58] that's something that's been,

[00:21:00] that's been interesting to me and has been useful for kind of

[00:21:04] understanding why I might be having some of the,

[00:21:08] or at least why my mind might be chattering in the way that it is.

[00:21:12] It's interesting because I think where I'm contemplating these days is if

[00:21:18] survival is the primary impetus of any living organism or life itself.

[00:21:24] And some would even say source or the universe is just living itself through

[00:21:29] us and the whole movement is for continuation,

[00:21:35] you know, ongoing survival,

[00:21:38] but or and what that looks like is sometimes really difficult or ugly or

[00:21:52] violent or aggressive. Like, you know,

[00:21:55] it's not it's and so,

[00:21:57] so sometimes I feel like it's hard to discern like sometimes and you know,

[00:22:02] you and I talked about maybe at some point talking about the polarization

[00:22:06] that's happening on the planet right now.

[00:22:08] There's a part of me when I go back far enough that wonders from an

[00:22:12] evolutionary perspective and if we're just part of that evolution and

[00:22:16] process and we don't necessarily have free will,

[00:22:19] which is another whole conversation, then what if,

[00:22:24] what if Jake that is essential to the ongoing evolution of our species?

[00:22:31] It kind of feels like it might be. Right. Yeah. Which is,

[00:22:34] which is a weird, it's a weird thought, but like,

[00:22:38] and I don't really know where to take it from there.

[00:22:41] That's kind of where it ends for you. I'm like, it kind of seems like it,

[00:22:45] but then what do we do with that? Yeah. Right. Do we then, you know,

[00:22:48] protest? Do we take a side? Do we fight? Do we, you know,

[00:22:52] do we retreat? Do we just go off on our own and do our own thing?

[00:22:55] Is that part of the evolutionary process? And you know,

[00:22:59] my answer on all those questions is I don't know for,

[00:23:03] for certain, I don't know if anybody knows for certain,

[00:23:06] but something about asking and living into the questions makes

[00:23:10] me feel like a better human.

[00:23:13] Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of just like, I often come up empty,

[00:23:17] but I feel like some of these thought experiments are there,

[00:23:19] they're worth playing with just for the sake of the exercise itself,

[00:23:22] even though for the most part I could spend three hours thinking about

[00:23:25] something and someone could be like, so what were you just doing?

[00:23:28] I'm like, I don't know. I have nothing. I don't know,

[00:23:32] but it was interesting to experiment with.

[00:23:35] But don't you ever find that like, I find that,

[00:23:38] and this was also over those years, like Krishnamurti take reading one of his

[00:23:42] books and then contemplate. So you say thinking about it,

[00:23:46] but for me contemplating is a better word because it's not right.

[00:23:50] It's working on me in some way. So,

[00:23:54] so you may ask me what have you been contemplating?

[00:23:56] And I would just say, well,

[00:23:57] I'm not sure or I read Krishnamurti or I read this Zen Koan,

[00:24:02] you know, or this poet.

[00:24:04] The Koans are the funniest because of like, I don't know. I,

[00:24:08] it did something. I don't know what it did, but I feel it somewhere.

[00:24:13] Yeah. But I don't know.

[00:24:15] And sometimes I think it just pops me into the witness where I just go,

[00:24:19] Whoa, look at me, you know, ruminating about that.

[00:24:22] Now that's a very different for me. I wonder, I'm curious about you.

[00:24:26] Contemplation feels really different than what I'll call perseveration,

[00:24:31] where let's say I'm going over in my mind, like,

[00:24:33] I can't believe my mom did this and then she,

[00:24:37] and he is such a jerk and I'm or I'm such a loser.

[00:24:40] I can't believe I'm such a loser.

[00:24:42] Like those thought patterns are very different than, Oh,

[00:24:46] I wonder if evolution is true.

[00:24:49] Yeah.

[00:24:50] Same for you. They feel different.

[00:24:52] Yeah. Those are very different to me.

[00:24:55] Like one of them feels that this is where I kind of fail to be able to explain

[00:24:59] stuff. Cause I've, I've, uh,

[00:25:00] I've talked to you before about how I get kind of lazy with like explanations

[00:25:04] and concepts. Cause I almost feel like, I, I,

[00:25:08] I do wonder how like you and other teachers manage to have so

[00:25:12] many like concepts in your head,

[00:25:13] but also not like get confused by them because I do that where like I've,

[00:25:18] like I'll kind of get lost in them.

[00:25:20] And then I realize a few days later that I've just been thinking way more

[00:25:23] than I like to be just cause I'm trying to think of some kind of concept,

[00:25:26] like answer a question that somebody asked me because I'm uncomfortable with

[00:25:29] saying, I don't know. Even though, even though that's,

[00:25:31] that's really the answer. Yeah.

[00:25:32] But I find that like whenever I try to fill my head with too many

[00:25:36] concepts, I kind of get, I get lost in them sometimes.

[00:25:42] Yeah. My experience of you is that you are,

[00:25:46] you are, how would I say it?

[00:25:49] Your willingness to be in the,

[00:25:53] I don't know is one of your superpowers.

[00:25:58] And I say that, um, like,

[00:26:02] like with such sincerity because certainty can often be a roadblock to our

[00:26:10] growth and our development and saying you don't know doesn't mean you're

[00:26:14] ignorant or you're stupid. Yeah. It actually means you're pretty smart.

[00:26:19] By saying, I don't know. I hope, I wish that worked in Spanish class.

[00:26:24] I just started taking the Spanish and dear God. Sorry. Sorry.

[00:26:28] No, I hear you. That's different. That's not like philosophical stuff. Right.

[00:26:33] But, but even there to be say, to be able to say,

[00:26:36] and to be able to say, I don't know, even on that question,

[00:26:38] like how do you say Apple in Spanish? I don't know.

[00:26:41] Like why do we feel like losers when we say, I don't know. Yeah.

[00:26:45] Where did that indoctrination come?

[00:26:49] Yeah. I mean, probably partially because of school. Like, I, I, I do think,

[00:26:53] like I made a joke about the Spanish and it is very different,

[00:26:57] but I do think that from a young age, like I,

[00:27:00] I at least in the environments that I was around, a lot of it's like,

[00:27:03] are you intelligent? Well, what are your grades? Like how,

[00:27:06] how did you do in K through six or K through five or like whatever?

[00:27:12] So I feel like that gets in from a very young age of like,

[00:27:16] how well can you rattle off facts at the table or something?

[00:27:20] And like, this is a world that is like completely different

[00:27:25] than, than like, then I guess the intellectual stuff that most of our

[00:27:30] schooling is filled with. So I feel like that, that kind of,

[00:27:32] that gives you an anxiety of like,

[00:27:34] I want to not be viewed as as an idiot or a loser.

[00:27:38] Cause that's also like that gets conflated with,

[00:27:40] you're not going to do anything with your life. So it's like, and,

[00:27:44] and we, we don't do, we don't cover. I wonder if it's like a,

[00:27:48] like if there's just too much worry about bringing like religion and stuff

[00:27:51] into schools, but we pretty much stay completely away of at least,

[00:27:54] at least in my experience of anything regarding philosophy or religion

[00:27:58] throughout basically all of school until,

[00:28:01] unless you go to a private school up until like college and stuff.

[00:28:03] But I feel like that, at least for me,

[00:28:05] I feel some of that like pressure to have to have an answer for

[00:28:09] something.

[00:28:10] I love that you're naming that.

[00:28:11] Cause I think that's one of the core systems that is collapsing that our

[00:28:16] educational system and it should, because it's true.

[00:28:20] We don't teach critical thinking,

[00:28:22] critical thinking very much anymore.

[00:28:24] And we certainly don't invite and evoke the questions of like,

[00:28:30] what does it mean to be human? You know, why are we here?

[00:28:33] What's the point? Because it crosses over into religion.

[00:28:37] And I think that's a shame.

[00:28:38] And I think it's impacting young people in not good ways.

[00:28:42] Yeah.

[00:28:44] Yeah, I do think, I mean, I, well,

[00:28:48] there's also that saying that's like,

[00:28:52] that gets talked about a lot and again, like it's,

[00:28:54] it's a different world,

[00:28:56] but there's that saying that if you can't explain something,

[00:28:58] you don't understand it well enough.

[00:29:00] And like that definitely applies.

[00:29:02] So I think that was Feynman or sometimes it gets attributed to Einstein

[00:29:05] or something that definitely gets, that,

[00:29:07] that's the thing that I think is important.

[00:29:09] Einstein or something that definitely gets,

[00:29:10] that definitely applies to what they were talking about.

[00:29:13] But I feel like that kind of creeps in and I mean,

[00:29:16] to me it seems like a lot of the Western philosophy tries a lot more

[00:29:20] to like play within those lines than some of the Eastern ideas do.

[00:29:24] Definitely.

[00:29:25] We need it.

[00:29:25] Definitely. I think Eastern gross generalization is more interested

[00:29:29] in the experience and Western is more interested in describing.

[00:29:35] I don't even know if they're describing the experience because a lot of

[00:29:37] describing the thinking, right?

[00:29:39] The ideas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:41] And sometimes you can get into this, you know,

[00:29:45] fight between should you practice or should you contemplate and philosophize?

[00:29:49] And my answer is you should do both.

[00:29:51] Yeah. They they feed each other.

[00:29:53] You know, there's this notion of the philosopher practitioner,

[00:29:57] which is, you know, what I am, what we are.

[00:29:59] We're both thinking because we don't want to not think about it

[00:30:03] or contemplate if anything, we want to use our mind to contemplate

[00:30:06] instead of to perseverate. Right.

[00:30:08] But we also don't want to just live in our thoughts.

[00:30:11] We want to embody and experience what it is we're thinking about.

[00:30:15] And that's where the magic starts to happen. Yeah.

[00:30:18] Yeah. There was something I was talking about something

[00:30:20] and then I started rambling and I forgot what I was saying.

[00:30:23] So I just kind of like left you to pick it up.

[00:30:25] But I remember what I remember what it is now.

[00:30:27] So you had said something about the difference between

[00:30:31] like contemplating stuff and the difference about just getting

[00:30:33] like too wrapped up in your own head and being able to tell.

[00:30:36] Yeah. To me, at least the way that I think about it is like one of them.

[00:30:40] And oh, yeah, I was talking about why,

[00:30:43] like how I get lazy with trying to explain things. But

[00:30:47] for because it just gets weird and kind of hard to do.

[00:30:50] And I always feel like I miss the mark.

[00:30:52] But for one of them, it feels like it's like it's

[00:30:56] I'm thinking about stuff, but kind of like not really

[00:30:59] is like they're kind of just coming.

[00:31:01] But it doesn't feel the same as like sitting down

[00:31:03] and like thinking hard about something.

[00:31:04] It's just like it's just kind of running naturally.

[00:31:07] And then the other one is like, it feels like I'm thinking more hard on the thing.

[00:31:11] So like what?

[00:31:13] So it's almost as if there's like two two layers of thinking.

[00:31:16] And like to me, this is the way I think about it.

[00:31:18] So like one of them would be like

[00:31:21] if I was writing on paper lightly with a pencil or something

[00:31:25] and you have like that light gray mark and then the level two would be

[00:31:28] like tracing over in pen.

[00:31:30] Like that's kind of how that's kind of how it feels in my head.

[00:31:33] Like one of them, it feels like I'm doubling down and kind of like

[00:31:36] attaching to the thoughts.

[00:31:37] And then the other ones just kind of feel like it's just going naturally.

[00:31:40] And the natural one is contemplation.

[00:31:42] And then the unnatural one is like when I'm kind of ruminating and clinging

[00:31:45] and I feel I feel like I'm draining energy, like I get cognitively tired

[00:31:50] when I feel like I'm kind of just working myself up in my head.

[00:31:54] But I don't get that way when I feel like the thoughts are just

[00:31:57] kind of coming out naturally.

[00:31:58] And I guess that that's that's how I would make the distinction between the two.

[00:32:01] Wow, that's really interesting.

[00:32:03] I love that because when you were describing it, I was here.

[00:32:07] I was visioning that the light one was more just what happens,

[00:32:12] the the perseverating or the ruminating and that the hard one

[00:32:16] was actually you leaning in and thinking.

[00:32:19] So I kind of flipped it.

[00:32:21] But either way, whichever, you know, metaphor or analogy we want to use.

[00:32:27] Do you think it's a it's a consequence of attention?

[00:32:32] Like part of what I heard you say is the perseverating or the ruminating.

[00:32:36] It just like happens.

[00:32:37] It's almost like automatic pilot.

[00:32:39] And it's just I'm a piece of shit or I can't believe she did this.

[00:32:42] Or, you know, how do you say dog in Spanish again?

[00:32:45] Or, you know, like it's just kind of happening on its own.

[00:32:48] And then when we put our attention on what are the mysteries of the universe

[00:32:53] or what is evolution or, you know, or even how do you say dog in Spanish?

[00:32:57] Right. That my attention goes there.

[00:33:00] And it's more fruitful and engaging than

[00:33:04] than what's just running on its own.

[00:33:06] Does that I guess it depends on how on how it makes me feel, because

[00:33:12] unless I'm giving attention to to the

[00:33:15] to the worse or more uncomfortable thoughts, then they don't really bother me.

[00:33:19] Like I can hear them in the background.

[00:33:20] But if I'm like the reason why I use like like the tracing example

[00:33:24] is because they don't actually bother me until I feel like it's like

[00:33:28] as if they're being written on a piece of paper.

[00:33:29] And then it only bothers me if I look at them and start like tracing over them

[00:33:33] or like attaching to them or clinging to us.

[00:33:35] I guess that's kind of the way that I think about it.

[00:33:37] I love that. I would agree.

[00:33:38] Sometimes it's important to put pen on them so that you can really understand them.

[00:33:43] And maybe there are times when they need work,

[00:33:46] like you need to do therapy around them or, you know.

[00:33:49] But often it just reinforces them and they're they don't have any power

[00:33:54] or any use whatsoever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.

[00:33:58] Speaking of that, do you have any kind of journaling practice that you like to do?

[00:34:05] I don't journal regularly.

[00:34:10] I never have.

[00:34:11] I've never I wasn't one.

[00:34:12] I wasn't Taylor Swift.

[00:34:13] Kept a journal when she was young and wrote all her stories in her

[00:34:17] her songs.

[00:34:19] I think writing is a fabulous tool,

[00:34:24] depending on your intention.

[00:34:25] And I have like if you've ever heard of Julia Cameron,

[00:34:30] she writes the artist way.

[00:34:32] So a lot of my students use morning pages as ways to just,

[00:34:37] you know, let the, you know,

[00:34:39] the thoughts go through until deeper thoughts and deeper clarity

[00:34:44] and deeper wisdom come.

[00:34:45] I do that process in my own interior meditation practice,

[00:34:50] but I've done writing workshops and I've done writing exercises.

[00:34:53] And I think they're super helpful depending on the intention.

[00:34:58] Right. So again, like you're saying,

[00:35:01] either it can be used to get clarity or it can be used to just persevere.

[00:35:08] Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes there have been times when I feel like

[00:35:13] at this point, I used to journal a lot and I still do sometimes.

[00:35:17] Cool. But I find I kind of like meditation a little bit more,

[00:35:22] at least for for like for a more

[00:35:25] like awareness or spiritual purpose,

[00:35:30] because there's a there's a funny saying from Stephen King

[00:35:33] where he said and to each their own, like whatever works for you.

[00:35:37] He has this funny saying where he was criticizing people

[00:35:39] keeping writers notebooks.

[00:35:41] And he said that something along the lines of a notebook

[00:35:46] is the best way to immortalize bad ideas

[00:35:48] because it's like it's and I've noticed that sometimes with myself,

[00:35:53] sometimes I'm like, what am I like, what am I writing about?

[00:35:55] Like this is nonsense.

[00:35:56] Like, why am I even giving this attention?

[00:35:59] And other times with like, well, with meditation,

[00:36:03] it seems like it kind of just filters that stuff out naturally.

[00:36:06] And like, I don't have to spend so much time like thinking about it.

[00:36:09] And I feel like if I journal too much, then I'm starting to just

[00:36:12] like hyper analyze stuff that if I was just meditating,

[00:36:15] it would have floated by like 15 minutes ago. Yeah.

[00:36:18] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:19] I think what we're talking about is really, again,

[00:36:21] what's what's the intention and where is our attention going?

[00:36:26] Yeah. And then if you don't have like your your North Star clear,

[00:36:32] then it can be confusing and disorienting.

[00:36:35] And you can think I should be going deeper into these things or I shouldn't be.

[00:36:40] It's just and I think that's happening for a lot of people these days.

[00:36:43] There's so many tools and techniques and teachers.

[00:36:47] And it's like, which one do I use? Where do I go?

[00:36:49] What do I do?

[00:36:50] And it's like, if you don't understand the map and the landscape at a bigger scale

[00:36:56] and where your North Star is, you're just going to be like all over the place

[00:37:00] on the ocean, likely to get capsized and drown.

[00:37:03] You know, but I mean, you know, could be fun too.

[00:37:05] I don't know. Not my way. Yeah.

[00:37:08] And I think that you just said that made me interested.

[00:37:10] And this question might be a little bit redundant

[00:37:13] with some of the stuff that we've talked about before.

[00:37:15] But you mentioned should or should not.

[00:37:17] And I think that's those are interesting words because it's usually

[00:37:22] like some kind of a conditioning that you've adopted.

[00:37:25] It's like usually that's not coming from you.

[00:37:27] Sometimes it is.

[00:37:28] And I feel like if it is, you don't even have to really think

[00:37:33] like should or should not. Like, you kind of just know.

[00:37:35] But to me, the should or should not come from like

[00:37:38] if I'm still like dealing with something that was like implanted into me

[00:37:42] like before. Yeah.

[00:37:45] And do you have or do you like to kind of investigate those

[00:37:50] just as an experiment, just to see kind of where they came from?

[00:37:53] Or is that something that you did before and at this point

[00:37:57] are a little bit more distance from like like the pressure

[00:38:00] of some of the conditioning from back when you were younger?

[00:38:03] I mean, I think context really matters in regards to that.

[00:38:07] So if you're asking the question, should I meditate?

[00:38:10] True, the should is coming from an external assumption

[00:38:13] or prescription on why and how to meditate.

[00:38:16] But if you've never meditated before, it's a legitimate question

[00:38:20] because you don't have an interior experience.

[00:38:23] But if you ask the question, like, should I eat that piece of cake?

[00:38:27] Right. That feels different because I that one in my own body

[00:38:32] and psyche, I know the answer for me, whether I should eat

[00:38:36] that piece of cake or not. Right.

[00:38:38] So in that regard, I feel like you're right.

[00:38:40] Then there's a conditioning either my mom that says, yes, honey,

[00:38:43] eat it. You deserve it.

[00:38:45] Or my dad saying, no, don't eat it.

[00:38:46] You're getting fat, you know, like either on either side, a yes or a no.

[00:38:50] So depending on context, maybe we wouldn't use the should word,

[00:38:55] you know, but it can be helpful to investigate.

[00:39:00] And other times it's just a waste of time and energy.

[00:39:03] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:04] OK, so I've I've kind of dominated with with the questions that I have.

[00:39:09] Do you have any topics that that you want to bring up or talk about?

[00:39:12] Well, I would love I think one of our maybe wasn't the last one,

[00:39:16] but it was the one before where we talked about Rick Rubin.

[00:39:18] We talked about art.

[00:39:19] So and it kind of dovetails a little bit with the journaling question.

[00:39:23] But I know you're you like art and and you're into music.

[00:39:27] And so I would love to hear from you.

[00:39:29] Like, how does art impact your own spiritual development

[00:39:33] and personal development and how do you use it in that regard?

[00:39:38] Yeah. So that's that has changed over time.

[00:39:42] And in the beginning, one of the things that's kind of weird

[00:39:46] about art is sometimes the stuff that you like is kind of reinforcing

[00:39:52] a thought pattern or an emotion

[00:39:54] that you don't really necessarily want to cling on to.

[00:39:58] You know what I mean?

[00:39:59] Yeah. Like sometimes you'll be gravitated towards a certain kind of music

[00:40:03] or a certain movie or a show or something that just like makes you feel like

[00:40:08] it's it's it can be cathartic in a sense.

[00:40:11] And like you feel like like you're not alone in the feeling.

[00:40:13] But sometimes I feel like.

[00:40:17] Some of those things, I'd rather not even engage with anymore,

[00:40:20] even though I used to like them more,

[00:40:21] like even if it was something that was like kind of darker

[00:40:25] or I'm like kind of at this point, I'm like,

[00:40:26] I don't really want to engage in that stuff anymore.

[00:40:29] So I used to be I used to kind of just be like,

[00:40:33] you know, what's my first reaction?

[00:40:36] I like this or or I like that.

[00:40:38] But now now, for the most part, at least in consuming stuff,

[00:40:43] I think a little bit more about what like what feeling it's actually playing to

[00:40:48] and making sure that that's something that I want to like

[00:40:51] reinforce and keep and keep in my attention.

[00:40:54] And so I try to like be be a little bit more fine tuned,

[00:40:57] if that makes sense.

[00:40:58] Yeah. Beautiful.

[00:41:00] There's such depth and wisdom in that approach

[00:41:04] that again, I don't even know if you're aware of

[00:41:08] how much you are capable of

[00:41:12] stepping back and observing yourself and being curious about yourself.

[00:41:18] So you have the self in you,

[00:41:20] let's say that is drawn to dark things, maybe or certain emotions or.

[00:41:25] And then there's a part of you that again, I call the witness capacity.

[00:41:29] There's a part of you that is so strong

[00:41:31] that it's able to look at that and wonder about it and just,

[00:41:37] you know, appreciate it for what it is.

[00:41:40] Going back to the very beginning of our conversation today,

[00:41:44] the next step is once we step back and notice,

[00:41:48] then then the next step is OK, so what do I want to do about that

[00:41:53] in order to bring me closer to source

[00:41:56] and being that conduit and that connection to life?

[00:41:59] And the answer may be for you in that moment.

[00:42:03] Yeah, let's what we need to do is do more of that dark music

[00:42:07] and and and do the catharsis. Right.

[00:42:10] And but you're bringing your intention and your attention.

[00:42:14] It's not unconscious.

[00:42:16] You're not just going into, oh, my God, I love this music.

[00:42:19] It makes me feel so bad, so so bad that it feels so good. Right.

[00:42:24] Yeah. And for somebody else, they go they might go for the bliss.

[00:42:27] And you see this a lot through psychedelics, through music,

[00:42:31] through making love, through whatever.

[00:42:33] You know, there's this unconscious drive for more and more and more.

[00:42:37] Whereas when you pull the witness in, you can see that habit

[00:42:42] and that pattern and you can reorient yourself around

[00:42:47] how do I want to integrate peak experiences into my relationship

[00:42:51] with source? Because I can't sustain that all the time.

[00:42:55] You know, if if if there is ever a human

[00:42:58] that can figure out how to do that, trust me, we would all be doing it.

[00:43:03] Right. But there's something about the highs and the lows

[00:43:06] that is natural to our organism.

[00:43:09] And we want to make art from that. Right.

[00:43:11] That's the artistry I speak of in self-history.

[00:43:15] So I love that you are paying attention in that way and figuring out.

[00:43:20] Now, that's just not serving me anymore around how I want to be

[00:43:24] in relationship with life and myself. Yeah.

[00:43:26] It's very simple.

[00:43:28] Yeah, yeah. I think for me, it's I've thought a lot more about

[00:43:33] like what action what feeling I actually want to have.

[00:43:36] And then art tends or happens to be a really good

[00:43:39] really good at expressing certain feelings, like in a way that is.

[00:43:43] It just it adds more color to just words.

[00:43:46] So like there's there's words and like there's you and I talking back

[00:43:49] and forth and there's reading and writing all those things I like.

[00:43:51] But it's like the it's as if you're getting like different lenses

[00:43:56] for the things like visual arts, really interesting for a communicate.

[00:43:59] It's it's the same feeling, but just in a different way.

[00:44:01] And it changes the way you think about it.

[00:44:02] Sound is the same thing. So music's like that.

[00:44:06] Even like even things like poetry, that's it's words, but kind of

[00:44:09] it's like it's a different it's a different kind of words.

[00:44:12] It's like so I

[00:44:15] to me, I think I get a little bit more now what

[00:44:19] the value that I get from art.

[00:44:21] I think it's mostly just about trying to get a certain feeling

[00:44:25] that I really like, but through different perspectives,

[00:44:27] because that just happens to be interesting to me.

[00:44:29] Can you describe to me what that feeling state is or what it's like?

[00:44:36] How would you describe it?

[00:44:42] I I guess the best word is I probably I probably would say peace.

[00:44:47] It's tough because that's you know,

[00:44:50] who knows if we're like when I say the word for thinking about the same thing,

[00:44:53] I think probably like if I if I had to guess, we're probably in the same ballpark.

[00:44:58] But I'm not it takes me out of my head.

[00:45:00] And, you know, there's that funny line in the Doubt H.

[00:45:03] We're like whenever I feel like I'm overthinking things

[00:45:05] and I'm over intellectualizing stuff and he has that line where it's like,

[00:45:08] stop thinking and end your problems.

[00:45:10] And that's basically like the whole thing in a nutshell.

[00:45:13] It's kind of that it's like anything that that brings me to that that place.

[00:45:17] Like, you know, you know, the stage from meditating

[00:45:20] and enough and doing the practices enough where you're basically not there.

[00:45:24] Yeah. And what's funny about it is like

[00:45:27] you can feel it and it feels good, but you don't really think about

[00:45:31] I'm feeling this way until you pop out of it.

[00:45:33] It's kind of like with a flow state when like when they talk about flow.

[00:45:37] And luckily, I've from playing sports and stuff.

[00:45:41] I was able to have those experiences like growing up

[00:45:43] because you can get into flow states and sports if you're like

[00:45:47] like doing it like sometimes you can just pop in if you're doing it well.

[00:45:52] But what's funny about them is you're never thinking

[00:45:56] like if I'm in a basketball game, I'm never thinking I'm in flow right now.

[00:45:59] I'm just playing and then the game ends or there's a timeout or whatever.

[00:46:02] And then I start thinking about it again.

[00:46:04] So it's kind of like that to me.

[00:46:06] It's kind of the same thing.

[00:46:07] I guess the flow state is basically the same thing

[00:46:09] where you kind of you kind of just disappear in some sense.

[00:46:12] Right. But you don't.

[00:46:15] You kind of disappear.

[00:46:17] So so it is your thoughts, I guess.

[00:46:20] OK. In your mind, in your thoughts.

[00:46:23] Is it an emotion, would you say?

[00:46:31] I guess. OK, I guess maybe.

[00:46:35] To me, it's more of like a physical feeling.

[00:46:37] It's physical. OK, so it's so yes.

[00:46:40] OK, I don't know.

[00:46:42] This is where I start to fall apart and trying and trying to explain it.

[00:46:45] Well, if you know, it's good.

[00:46:47] I think it's good for our listener as well, because this is where

[00:46:50] I think a lot of us get confused.

[00:46:53] Right. So let's see.

[00:46:55] I can.

[00:46:58] Sense that state, maybe I'm in it,

[00:47:01] I don't know when I'm feeling sad, right?

[00:47:05] So so I wouldn't say that I would agree with you that I

[00:47:09] when I talk about artistry, I'm talking about being connected

[00:47:14] to source or life in a way that genders or generates

[00:47:19] that state that you just called peace.

[00:47:21] And I do feel the resonance with you that we're talking about the same thing.

[00:47:24] And I want to unpack it a little bit for the benefit of our listener.

[00:47:28] Because when we say peace, some people hear happy,

[00:47:33] some people hear no conflict, some people hear healthy,

[00:47:37] some people hear powerful, like there's this association like, oh,

[00:47:41] if I can just get to that flow state all the time

[00:47:45] or that peace state all the time, then I'll finally be happy

[00:47:49] and I won't suffer anymore.

[00:47:51] But while we're in the human form.

[00:47:54] We also here's where the integration comes in.

[00:47:57] We also have a headache or an annoyance about,

[00:48:01] you know, the neighbor's dog barking or like.

[00:48:04] So what happens to all of that

[00:48:07] when you're in that that zone of peace?

[00:48:11] Does it go offline?

[00:48:13] No, I'm like if I have that's that's a really good point.

[00:48:16] It's like if I have physical pain or something,

[00:48:20] it's still there and I still feel it.

[00:48:22] But there's not like there's not any kind of like stuff,

[00:48:25] second level pain or tension or conflict over top of it. Nice.

[00:48:30] So it's so it's like this is where it kind of gets a little confusing

[00:48:34] with like like Buddhism and and like the words desire and suffering and stuff.

[00:48:38] It's like, OK, but what about like if somebody like stabs me,

[00:48:41] it's going to hurt, you know?

[00:48:42] But there's like so I guess the way I think about it is like there's

[00:48:46] there's two levels.

[00:48:47] So like like there's one of just like what's actually happening.

[00:48:50] And then the second one is like my mind freaking out about it

[00:48:53] and like the my my mind freaking out about it is kind of dissipates.

[00:48:56] And then whatever the pain is, isn't really that bad.

[00:48:59] I guess I guess that's that's how I would explain it.

[00:49:02] It gets interesting, right?

[00:49:03] It gets curious. It's a sensation.

[00:49:06] It's not something to push away or and here's the thing.

[00:49:09] Same with pleasure.

[00:49:11] So so you just use the example of pain.

[00:49:14] So this state of peace or ease or contentment or curiosity or wonder

[00:49:19] or awe when we're seated or centered in it, it's always here.

[00:49:23] Let's be clear, right?

[00:49:25] But when but when we're like attuned to it or we're sitting in it,

[00:49:29] then pleasure as well as pain

[00:49:33] are curious phenomena that are happening,

[00:49:35] but they're not things we have to grasp at or push away.

[00:49:40] Yeah. And I love to underscore that for people because I feel like it helps

[00:49:45] us ground into what are these spiritual practices all about.

[00:49:48] It's not about being in this blissed out state all the time,

[00:49:52] unless you mean bliss by Pete when you say peace.

[00:49:55] But then let's define those terms.

[00:49:58] Most people think it's like, oh, I'm having a nonstop orgasm

[00:50:01] or psychedelic experience.

[00:50:03] It's like no, no, no, no. Yeah.

[00:50:06] Yeah. That's where some of the description gets confusing.

[00:50:10] And I think probably why why I tend to to lean towards

[00:50:16] as little of that as possible, at least for myself.

[00:50:18] It turns into a different game when you're trying to like guide

[00:50:21] other people there, which is which is where my flaws like

[00:50:25] as exhibited in like what I just tried to describe.

[00:50:27] Like, that's where the problem is.

[00:50:29] I don't think so.

[00:50:30] I want to reframe that for you, because I think that what we said earlier

[00:50:34] also about schools or about religion in general or these kind of questions.

[00:50:40] Every generation has to ask them again.

[00:50:42] Every individual human has to ask it on their own.

[00:50:47] The thing that we don't do enough of, in my opinion, is have conversations

[00:50:52] like this, hang out together, practice together, ask together,

[00:50:57] be willing to not know together and live into it.

[00:51:02] And that's what we're doing.

[00:51:04] That's that's why I love hanging out with you.

[00:51:06] I don't know why you're hanging out with me.

[00:51:08] That's why I love hanging out with you.

[00:51:09] Same reason. Yeah.

[00:51:12] Why do you think that is that there's that there seems to be a lack of that?

[00:51:17] I will say, though, it's kind of funny.

[00:51:21] I've noticed that that tends to dissolve when it's just one on one.

[00:51:24] I like I've noticed, like I can go places with friends and family

[00:51:29] that we would never go in a group of three.

[00:51:31] And that's happened consistently throughout my life.

[00:51:34] So people are very open to those kinds of conversations,

[00:51:37] but it seems like there's something that gets weird about it

[00:51:39] if you're in a group, unless you're really comfortable with the other person.

[00:51:43] Yeah. And you brought this up earlier, I think,

[00:51:45] before we actually started rolling about relationships.

[00:51:48] Is that also relevant?

[00:51:50] Like how do how do we have these conversations with people

[00:51:53] who don't normally have these conversations or aren't interested in meditation?

[00:51:58] And I think it's you know, everybody's at a different stage

[00:52:02] of their life and their journey.

[00:52:03] I have a lot of compassion for people who I used to be

[00:52:08] way more self-righteous about asking these questions and being involved in this.

[00:52:12] But I've come to relax around that and understand that

[00:52:16] I don't know why it is this way or why some of us have these questions

[00:52:21] and others of us don't.

[00:52:23] But what I do know is that as we or as I

[00:52:28] when I came back out of retreat because retreat,

[00:52:30] I was definitely in it with people who were in it.

[00:52:33] When I came back into the world where most people weren't,

[00:52:35] I had to learn how to be

[00:52:40] respectful and how to be compassionate

[00:52:44] around people who aren't thinking about these things or what I'm thinking about.

[00:52:50] And I started to just get more curious, like, what are they thinking about?

[00:52:55] Yeah. And then I I have a tendency to lean into asking people

[00:53:00] questions about themselves and their lives and then slowly,

[00:53:04] but surely something might pop in them and it might not.

[00:53:08] But I work hard and less hard now because I feel like I have

[00:53:12] new habits of how I am in public or with other people.

[00:53:17] But if I see myself, and this may be true for you as well, like sometimes.

[00:53:23] Yeah, it's just hard to be around people.

[00:53:26] It's draining for me to be around people who are talking about

[00:53:28] sports or politics or the weather for too long.

[00:53:31] And that I see that as my limitation, not theirs.

[00:53:35] Yeah. And then I just, you know, gracefully bow out or take a break

[00:53:39] or without laying this judgment on them.

[00:53:42] And that took a while for me to get to.

[00:53:48] Yeah. So what does pulling back for you in that context look like?

[00:53:51] Because I find the same thing where I don't have great stamina for that.

[00:53:55] Yeah. But like I kind of like and then I'll start to get irritated

[00:53:59] and I'll start to get like judgmental and I'll start being kind of selfish.

[00:54:03] Yeah. It's like, oh, are you disrupting my peace with this?

[00:54:06] Like whatever it is you're talking about.

[00:54:07] I was like, yeah.

[00:54:09] Like what's the way that you deal with that?

[00:54:11] I do it two ways.

[00:54:12] One is I say no to the invitation.

[00:54:15] I don't even go in the first place.

[00:54:17] Yeah. Which which can be tricky sometimes,

[00:54:19] like with family obligations or friend obligations.

[00:54:21] But I decline.

[00:54:23] And if I need to make up an excuse, like I don't feel well

[00:54:26] or I have something else to do, then I'll make that up.

[00:54:29] So they don't feel like I'm saying, oh, I don't want to hang out with you.

[00:54:33] And then the other thing is, I make it a practice.

[00:54:37] Like I just go in there and I keep my mouth shut

[00:54:39] and I work to get to that place of peace

[00:54:42] and let those people and the conversations like recede into the background.

[00:54:47] So I visualize them as a part of me that is annoying myself.

[00:54:52] And how am I in relation to that annoyance and make it a practice?

[00:54:57] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:59] Yeah, that's something I'm

[00:55:02] as as irritating as some of those situations can be for me.

[00:55:07] If I like if I lose my my energy and like I lose my awareness and my patience,

[00:55:12] it is kind of fun.

[00:55:13] It's interesting just even like partially on a selfish level, just to like

[00:55:18] just to like stick myself in some of the situations and just see what happens

[00:55:22] and see where my mind goes.

[00:55:23] And then if I'm in the right state of mind, like you mentioned curiosity,

[00:55:26] like you can kind of look at some of these and be like, this is just an interesting

[00:55:30] this is just us thinking about whatever the thing is or like, why is everybody so

[00:55:35] interested in this thing that's going on?

[00:55:38] It's kind of fun to just sit there and observe it.

[00:55:40] Just I guess I guess that's that's where like the psychology major stuff

[00:55:44] can can be a bit of a benefit because that's basically what the entire field is.

[00:55:49] It's just like sticking yourself in situations and be like, what's this like?

[00:55:52] This is interesting.

[00:55:53] Yeah. Right.

[00:55:54] Yeah. You put your anthropology or your

[00:55:56] sociology cap on and you just get curious and then you start asking questions, too.

[00:56:01] And yeah.

[00:56:02] And when you feel your energy start to drain, then you just step out.

[00:56:06] You just bow out.

[00:56:07] Yeah.

[00:56:08] Yeah.

[00:56:09] That seems to be the best method for me instead of trying to push through

[00:56:12] that because I get kind of worn down.

[00:56:14] Yeah.

[00:56:16] Yeah.

[00:56:17] But yeah, that's all I have for this one.

[00:56:20] Do you have anything else that you want to bring up?

[00:56:22] I'm not sure what time you need to get out of here.

[00:56:24] Yeah, no, we're good.

[00:56:25] I feel I do feel complete.

[00:56:26] Also, I feel like

[00:56:29] yeah, I feel like I want to just have the listener know that

[00:56:36] we're going to come back together and do a deep dive into politics.

[00:56:41] And in the context of everything we've been talking about for these last

[00:56:45] three conversations, and I'm super excited about that because it does

[00:56:51] it does speak to do we if we're doing this kind of spiritual work, let's call

[00:56:56] it, do we have a responsibility for being engaged in what's happening in the

[00:57:01] outside world and if so, what does that mean?

[00:57:04] And what does that look like?

[00:57:05] How do we discern, you know, is it a should you should vote?

[00:57:09] Right. Or is it does it need to come

[00:57:11] from inside of us and how do we know, you know, what you know what to do?

[00:57:17] And I think these are these are questions that are definitely in my life in a big

[00:57:22] way and and I know in many, many people's as well.

[00:57:25] So I think I would like to just, you know, what's it called?

[00:57:29] Like set that up for the next.

[00:57:32] Yeah, sir.

[00:57:34] Yeah, I'm excited for that one because

[00:57:36] that's something that I haven't really gotten into much like us talking about

[00:57:39] it on the last one was the most I've talked about it on here.

[00:57:41] So I'm looking forward to kind of

[00:57:43] I haven't drilled into that world for a while.

[00:57:46] So I'm interested in looking into that and us talking about it.

[00:57:49] Cool.

[00:57:50] So that's your homework is to put your sociology, psychology, anthropology hat

[00:57:54] on and do some deep dive into what's happening with the polarization

[00:58:01] politically and the extreme polarization.

[00:58:04] And let's have a conversation about that next.

[00:58:07] Cool. Cool.

[00:58:08] Well, thanks a lot for doing this again.

[00:58:10] This has been another fun one.

[00:58:11] So I really appreciate it.

[00:58:12] Thank you, Jake.